Feb. 7, 2023

105: On Emails, Takeaways & Outlander (feat. Danielle Weil)

105: On Emails, Takeaways & Outlander (feat. Danielle Weil)

Is your email list really that important? How can we best communicate our deep awareness of the problems our prospects face without pouring salt in the wound? How can we find the perfect balance between personalized storytelling and widely applicable takeaways?

Danielle Weil, copy strategist to the stars, is here to set us straight.  She outlines tip after tip for fostering trust and connection with your readers, finding inspiration everywhere, and leaning into structure to free your mind. Then, Danielle and Annie (brilliant women who read trashy, trashy books) dive into what lessons can be learned from the book series turned TV sensation, Outlander.

*Parentpreneur advisory: this episode contains small amounts of colorful language.

Connect with Danielle through her Instagram and LinkedIn.
Don't forget to grab her free guide, containing 30+ tips for crafting perfect subject lines for your emails at https://www.dwcopy.com/subjectlines.

What's Inside:
[00:00:00] - You always have to start with where they are. 
[00:00:46]- What do small business owners need to focus on this week? Your nurture sequence.
[00:03:25] - You are incubating and raising someone's trust and awareness of you. 
[00:04:55] - It isn't just about proving yourself, it's about differentiating yourself.
[00:13:07] - If you can give me a takeaway, something that'll shorten my learning curve, I'm all in.
[00:13:47] - Small details can be really interesting. 
[00:18:01] - When a show manages to get real, we appreciate it.
[00:21:26] - What you're actually crafting is a narrative. 
[00:24:34] - Structures allow you the freedom to be more creative. 
[00:29:59] - Let's differentiate structure from templates!
[00:30:59] - What can we learn about writing emails from book series like Outlander?
[00:32:44] - Segmentation allows your audience to choose their own adventure. 
[00:35:09] - How do you explain germs to somebody who has no idea? 
[00:38:09] - It may be easier to blend in. 
[00:39:44] - Change is scary. But that also doesn't mean that the solution isn't also scary. 
[00:43:31] - Shockingly deep and surprisingly meaningful: the question we asked #PodFest2023 and your homework for the week

Wanna binge? Check out these related episodes:
- On Bravery, Resilience & Bridgerton (feat. Heather Vickery)
On Creativity, Discipline & The Home Edit (feat. Molly Beran)
On Resonance, Experimentation & Ferris Bueller's Day Off (feat. Christy Cegelski)
On Clients, Connection & Mean Girls (feat. Breanna Gunn)
There's lots of frameworks out there. There's the ones that people like. This is the one that I teach. You always have to start with where they are. What is the problem? What does it look like? Can you describe it to them better than they can themselves? Like, oh, how do you know? Welcome to too legitimate to quit instantly actionable small business strategies with a pop culture spin I am your host, non sleazy sales strategist and self identified muppet Annie P. Ruggles. And my guest today is the incredible Danielle Weil, who I had the pleasure of spending multiple days with, having great adventures at Podfest in Orlando. Danielle Weil is a copy and marketing strategist who helps expert business owners get the tools, resources, and confidence to own their voice in copy. She has been writing copy since 2006 for industry leaders like Ryan Levek, Todd Herman, Marissa Mergatroy, Selena Sue, Josh Turner, and more to the tune of over $100 million in sales, you can find Danielle on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and her newsletter@dwcocopy.com. Danielle, you beautiful, brilliant, genius. It has been an ordeal getting this thing scheduled, and that is all my fault. So thank you, first and foremost for being super flexy, but I'm extra super excited to ask you the question, what do small business owners need to focus on this week? Your nurture sequence. Oh, you're talking to me now? How many people I wrote it once, I uploaded it, and have not touched. It since or, like me. And you know this because I told you this, you have an amazing two email ramp up that then just immediately dies. My nurture sequence is a nurture. Blip, it's not quite a sequence. It's a nurture oops. So, yeah, in either of those iterations, either you set it and forget it and never check it and never iterate it, or like me, you start really beautifully, and then you just roller tycoon your people right off into the abyss of nothingness. Oh, gosh. And it's because it's really important, but it's never urgent, right? If you do it once, it's there, it's not like, oh, this thing is launching tomorrow. We must send an email. But it really is super important, so I want to bring it. Top of mind, if you don't have one, maybe consider writing one. If you have one you haven't looked at, maybe look at it this week and see what you can do with it. Because let's talk about the importance of nurturing, because the nurture sequence is really a perfectly named term, right? There's a lot of things that I'm like I don't know why we call it that, but nurture sequence makes a lot of sense to me, and it's titling in that you really are fostering this baby bird of interest, right? Like, you are incubating and raising someone's trust and awareness of you. So why is that so important, especially. When you're doing it via email, when you're doing it in writing it's your way of a new person who saw something that they liked about you, opted in for your list. Then they go, now what? Okay? And it's time to build the relationship. It's actually an opportunity for you to put your best stuff in front of them. And so one technique for creating that nurture sequence if you don't want to look at a blank page and go write all these emails. If you are emailing your list regularly like you should be, go look at that data, take your best performing emails of your nurture content and just put them in as your nurture sequence. Done. Done. Grandpa's favorite acronym for longtime listeners of the show, apf. Right? If you already wrote something high performing, you use it again. If you wrote something that's not so well performing, slim it down and use thumbnails like, you've got this. Y'all you've got this. But no, I love that. And one thing that you said that I think is so key, because I can hear the stomach gurgling of listeners around the world, you said, it's an opportunity to put your best stuff out there. People are so darn protective, understandably, of putting their best stuff out there. They don't want to give away too much. They don't want to give people no reason to hire them. Do you have any tips, tricks, or reframes for people that are very sensitive about the amount they give away? Here's the thing, especially if you're in the expert space, like, you sell your expertise, coaching, consulting, whatever, there is never going to be a situation where you give away too much, right? Because when people come to work with you, first of all, you have blown them out of the water with how much you know, but are they going to go and implement it? Maybe if you've got your really gung ho folks, but most people, self included, learn something, go take a bunch of notes. I'm like, okay, that's cool. Are we going to do that? You need help. And so even sharing your knowledge, there's no situation in which that will prevent someone from coming to say, like, all right, I got it all. I'm good. They still need you. They still need you. They still need you because they need that handheld component, right? And especially when you're proving your expertise, you're probably not their first expert. They have likely explored this space before. So you need to take the opportunity to deepen their understanding of you by showing how you're competitively, different, and how your expertise varies, right? So the nurture sequence isn't just about proving yourself. It's about differentiating yourself and letting your personality come through. Because, again, it's a really crowded space we're in. There's a lot of people doing what you do and putting a different spin on it. Of course, no one is you, which means that your flavor of ice cream, as I call it, I always ask clients and people like, what's your favorite ice cream flavor and why? It is a great story, which almost always turns into a great email. Yeah. Now I'm trying to answer that myself. Gosh, well, let's do it. What's your favorite ice cream flavor and why? My very favorite ice cream flavor? I think I'm a standard mint chip. Is that standard? No, it's not standard. I think a good, well delivered, well executed mint chip is a thing of beauty. I agree. It is my favorite flavor, too. Hi. There we go. And I've told this story. First of all, I think I'm a redhead, and I wear lots of green, and so my brand is basically mint chocolate chip. But I tell this story about, like, that is my favorite ice cream flavor when I moved to Israel 14 years ago. You can't get it here because Israelis think that mint chocolate tastes like, why would you eat something that tastes like toothpaste? And by the way, that email is in my nurture sequence. So if you go and get on my list, you will get the whole explanation of my husband's reaction to my favorite ice cream flavor. Okay, well, I had to learn how to make it myself from scratch. When we're in Orlando, we are going to eat nothing but mint chip ice cream. Like, three meals a day. You got to get your fill, and then we'll take a bunch of lactate. Right. But mint chip is like what I love about mint chip is that it's a refreshing ice cream because it's got that crisp, cold mintiness. But you could have it on a hot day, you could have it on a cold day. It's, like, universally lovely and always crisp and fresh and surprising and soothing, and then the chip just gives you that little bit of crunch to remind you to slow down and actually chew. Yeah. And the story that I tell about it is it actually tastes like freedom to me. I just realized this because we had a carvel around the corner from my house, and I grew up in South Florida. You don't walk anywhere. It is armpit hot, and nothing is walking distance but the carvel. It's very humid, like South Florida, but the carvell was walking distance. So I remember being ten years old and being allowed to walk to carvell to get ice cream for the first time. Whoa. And of course, it was mint chocolate chip. And so I was like, and when. It'S armpit hot and you're a ten year old and you walked there, that mint chip is going to feel like the most refreshing thing you could imagine. Amazing. And so when you I love asking this question because there's always a story or there's always a metaphor you can make with the ice cream itself, and it's like instant content. See? Okay. You're bringing up a really amazing point that I try to stress all the time that I never, ever really nail, which is there are emails that seem annoyingly off topic, right? And those exist, right? And there are emails sometimes even from email strategists and copywriters that I get that I open because they have some catchy gotcha subject line. And then I open it and I'm like, okay, but why did you send me this? And that's not what I'm talking about. What you're talking about is your life being content for your emails, because you can always find a way to relate things back to your work. This freaking podcast proves that we have pulled marketing and sales and business and branding and accounting lessons out of the weirdest stuff, right? But we're drawing the line, we're drawing the comparison. So when you're saying think about your favorite ice cream, think about your favorite ice cream as a metaphor. Think about your favorite ice cream as a prompt. You're not just emailing me to be like, my favorite ice cream is mint chip, what's yours? Interesting choice how you house that, right? But I think some people are like, oh, I could just email whatever I want. And other people are like, if it's not the most literal application of my work, I can't do it. There's so much gooey goodness in between there, right? So how do we know when something is ripe to be converted to content and when something is just not yet cooked enough to come in? First of all, I believe that anything you can write an email about anything, and I've done it. I've written emails for the same product back in my early days as a writer, I used to write three emails a week for the same product and I did that for five years. You have to get really creative. Yeah, you got to diversify. God, that's a lot of emails. You can turn anything into an email. The key is following the right structure. First of all, using good writing techniques, which I call kind of like the Hollywood intro, where you sort of start in the middle of the story, grab someone in and then be like, yeah, this is actually what it's all about. Like a movie that starts in the middle of the action and making sure that the point, the lesson. The takeaway is something that matters to your reader, matters to your audience. You got to have a takeaway. You can make any story, whether it's compelling story writing, great metaphor, sexy language, whatever it is that you're doing in your email, if the takeaway is not there, people are going to read it and go, well, okay, why? I feel the same way about memoirs. I have made so many freaking enemies in the personal development space because everybody wants to write their memoir. And I'm like, look, I don't care if you write a memoir, but I'd rather you write a self help book based on your own story that has a dank takeaway, right? Unless you're one of the top five most interesting people on the planet. I'm probably not going to read a whole book of your life story. I'd rather watch a documentary. But if you can give me a takeaway, something I can apply, something I can learn from, something that'll shorten my learning curve, I'm all in. And this is actually applicable. Right. And this is one of the reasons, like the details. And this is why I wanted to talk about outlander. Can we segue into outlander? Of course we can segue into outlander. Okay. So I am a big fan of the books. Full disclosure, I have not seen all of the show. I started reading at the age of three, and so I'm a very fast reader. The more pages, the better. Which is what attracted me to the books in the first place, because there are a lot of pages. Yeah, they're beefy. They are beefy, beefy books. And I love that about them because then it takes me a little while to get through them and I get to be in the story longer. Yeah, but what I think is so cool about them is that there's a lot of everyday life in those books. Yeah. There's a lot of other stuff that's happening, but there's a lot of everyday details that are happening that are just working. There's a lot of cooking. There's a lot of cooking and diaper. Changes in those books. And diaper changes and cleaning. Like, when was the last time you read a book where they actually sweep the floor? Like, thank you. Thank you for that reality. You're still reading, it's still really compelling. And so that's just an example of how the way that you tell the story and that these small details can be really interesting, can be really important. And so I don't want someone to walk away with like, oh, I have to have an amazing takeaway to be able to write an email. It takes practice. You do probably have something incredible to say. It's just a muscle to practice to make those connections. Yeah, because that's where the relatability comes in. Especially if someone is very different from you. Right. Because we're all trying to show not sameness, but connection. Yes. And the other piece that when I teach my email framework, the thing that I tell people to do before they write is GTF. Okay? G stands for goal, not GTFO. GTF. GTF goal. Goal. T is for takeaway and F is for feeling before you even write the email you put down. Okay, where am I going with this? What is the call to action? What is the goal of this email? What take away do I want someone to have? What is the lesson? What's the value? And what do I want them to feel when they're reading it? And that last part, I think, is something a lot of people forget to do. Yes. I try to ask every podcast host that has me on their show, how they want their listeners to feel at the end of the episode or throughout the episode. Because I say the same stuff over and over and over and over again. Much like writing three product emails a week for the same product for five years, right? Like I have my greatest hits. However, how I relate those greatest hits, how I explain them, how I ground them in teaching, or application or story, or what language I use, am I tough love, am I more motivational? I have so much more of a playground than I allow myself if I focus on how I want and the host wants people to feel, right? So I think that is so totally true because A, I think people focus maybe on the goal sometimes they're like why am I writing this? And that's about as far as they go. They don't necessarily attach the takeaway as we've already discussed and because there's no takeaway, we certainly don't focus on the feeling. Because normally if we're giving a great takeaway, what we want them to do is change something or do something. So what we want them to feel is motivated, empowered, over, inertia, over the hump, moving forward. We want to have that epiphany feeling. So what are some of the feelings that you think if people are like I don't know what the heck I want them to feel, what are some of the feelings that you think make really strong or compelling emails? Okay, so motivation is one for sure. I want to feel like oh yes, I can definitely do this. Desire is another. I want this. I am excited to find out more about this curiosity. So like I don't know what's behind this link over here but I would like to find out because you sold it to me in the email and left strategic gaps. Omo is another one. This thing is happening and all the cool kids are going to be there. And if you don't come, sorry about you connection. So some emails are just about relating to someone else. They feel like I know more about who you are. Now I get this. They want to feel that's again where the sweeping the floor, changing the diapers, patching a hole in the roof outlander stuff comes in. It's like we do want to see that stuff. Not only that stuff, but we do want to see it because these people need to feel real to us. How come nobody ever goes to the bathroom and movies are on TV? I don't need to see them go to the bathroom but it would be really nice if someone would be like hold on a second, I got a. P, I've got four kids so whenever there is a birth scene in a movie I'm just like no, that's not how this works. Without going too far into detail, but that's another pet peeve because it's not real, right? It's not real. And it pulls you out of the narrative. It pulls you out of the story when you're like, Wait, something's not right here. Even if you can't consciously figure out what that is. If I'm watching Twelve Angry Men, which takes place in one room, and at no point does anyone get up to pee and they've been there for two days, I'm going to be like, I'm going to start worrying about these men's bladders. That's not the point of Twelve Angry Men. And I think with movies and there's some suspension of reality that happens that we've taught ourselves to just set aside so we can enjoy the movie. But when a show, a book, a movie manages to get that realism in there, I think we notice, and I think we appreciate it. Yes. Especially because the majority of our listeners and you and me are not selling fiction. We're selling services. We're selling programming. We're selling things based on this reality, right? So we don't have the gifts of fiction to kind of hide or cloak us. We don't have as much suspension of disbelief. We're saying, I'm a real person. This is my real life, and this is how it pertains to your real life. So it's not that suspension of disbelief doesn't ever happen, and that people are taking a magnifying glass to your emails to see how often you pee. That's not what I'm saying. You all but at the same point, we do want to show the truth of it. Yeah, the good, the bad, and the sometimes ugly. But that said, and this is where I talk about this difference between story and narrative, because everyone's like, oh, tell stories. Tell stories. And I think people hear that, and they go, all right, well, then this happened, and then this happened. And they go very linearly through the story. Once upon a time, there was a little girl. She lived in a house. She had a sister. See her sister, right? Like, no. And what you're actually crafting is a narrative. And a narrative has a very specific structure to it. So you can tell your stories. Your stories will all fit into this narrative framework. I say it's like the only copy framework you'll ever need. Problem, story, discovery, solution. Did you all hear that? So there's lots of frameworks out there. There's the ones that people like, this is the one that this is the one that I teach. You always have to start with where they are, where what is the problem? What does it look like? Can you describe it to them better than they can themselves? Like, oh, how do you know? Exactly? Because that's how eventually, you're going to stare, step into your paid offerings. I understand the problem that you are facing, and let me show you how to get out of it. Before we share or sell the solution, we have to get them aware of the fact that we understand the problem or to illuminate something about the problem that they're currently in. Right? Well, that's the discovery step. So first is like, I get it. This is what life looks like now. And when you do that to the level of detail and nuance that you really can, because a lot of people, I see a lot of the copy that's pretty surface level, and they're not really digging into the core emotions. And when you do, people go, oh, okay, this person gets me. And they automatically make that next leap in their brain to thinking, okay, maybe if they got the problem so well, maybe they have the solution. Yes. And so then you tell your story. You say I get it. This is how I understand what's going on. It's either because I've been there before or because I've done it. I've helped other people out of it. Again and again and again and again and again and again. And then the discovery pieces. Here is what you do not yet understand. And then you blow their minds, and. Then you blow their freaking brain stems. You all just blow them out of the water. And then the reaction that you want is. The light bulb. You want that light bulb above the head. And once that moment, this is why it has not worked. Okay, so now what do I do? Now that they know you have the curse of knowledge, you actually have to do something about it. Right? Okay, so what do I do? There's your solution. This is also an absolutely gorgeous framework for sales pages. I have a sales page course where I teach you exactly how to do it. Hey, I mean, go grab that right now. Right? But it's got a flow. We've got a flow from problem to possibility to solution. Right. And how we do that is through that discovery phase. How we do that is by showing them that we know where they are. Now, you have used this word so many times, this episode, and I'm loving it. And I think there's also a fun little outlander tie in here. You keep talking about structure, and a lot of people rebel against structure because they think that structure is too strict. I always think of structure, especially in writing, as a recipe, right? It's guidelines and firm ones, but there's still all kinds of ways that you can put your own spin on it. So you and I have previously disclosed to each other that we are beautiful, brilliant women who read trashy trashy books. And I love my trashy books. And I will also argue that a lot of modern, although not necessarily contemporary, but a lot of recently written post Bodice Ripper era romance is actually a very feminist art form because it puts the female often protagonist in the middle of it and makes her live her own life and make her own choices, right? Especially in historicals. But the reason I bring this up is that romance has very strict genre requirements. One of them being if it doesn't have an HEA, if it doesn't have a happily ever after, it's not a romance. And as such, how you get there, though, can change, right? Like, there's always got to be person meets person. They can't be together right away, or there would be no need for the plot. So there has to be some kind of misunderstanding or conflict unfolding of that. I mean, it's Pride and Prejudice 101, right? Regurgitated over and over with smutty bits thrown in. So what do you say to people that kind of rebel or feel really resistant to obey or embrace structure? It's a really good question. And the idea of I have a degree in English literature, so I'm a little bit of a nerd when it comes to this stuff. And that is the reason that I don't read literature and business books anymore because I did enough of that. Like, okay, Chaucer, you can sit on my shelf. Okay, Chaucer, you can be on my show shelf. Like, people can come over and see you and be like, wow, Chaucer, and that's your role now, right? I have all those Norton anthologies and they sit in the living room, the living room shelf. People go, oh, they don't, actually, because they're Israelis and they don't fully appreciate this. But that said, the idea of structure, and this is where this convergence of creativity comes in, people are like, oh, I have to be so creative to be a copywriter. I have to be creative to write copy. And there is some element of creativity to it, but within that, there is also a lot of structure. And the way that I describe it, it's kind of like building a bridge. So you're building a bridge from where your ideal audience is right now to where you want them to be, which is credit card in hand, going, please take my money, right? Happy customers who come back again and again. And you are not pushing them across that bridge. Your goal is to build it, show them what's on the other side, and make it so easy for them to walk across. And if you are missing a plank in that bridge, what's going to happen? They're going to fall in the river. Yeah, they're going to fall right in the river. So that is how I talk about structure. It's about making sure that all your planks are in the right place. They can be wood, they can be painted purple. They can be whatever you want them to be, right? You can have five or 50, depending on how much of something you need to create. But they have to be in the right order and they have to be evenly spaced. And the structures actually allow you the freedom to be more creative. If that's sitting in front of a blank page or a blank canvas going, I can paint anything. I don't know. Whereas if somebody gives you a prompt and I've done this in workshops with people, I've had a little baggy of different words, random words. The Beatles, submarines, deep sea diving, random, random things. And you have to go write an email about it in 20 minutes. You would not believe the amazing copy that comes out of that exercise because you have given someone a constraint. And so structure is actually a way to make it easier, a way to free your brain up, to be creative. Y'all hear that? Structure frees your brain. It doesn't bind you. It frees your brain. Because you know what criterion you have to fit and you know what deliverables. You have to deliver. And you know how you're going to get from point A to point Z. Good for you. And within that you can be as creative as you want to be. And of course, not all structure is going to fit each thing. Sometimes you need to shift a little bit in terms of the way if you're looking at a sales page, like, oh no, I think this section needs to go here this time. There's a lot of ways to get there. But if you are working with no structure, nothing to begin with, you're just making it harder for yourself. Yes, infinitely harder. Because how are you know when you met your goals? You won't, you won't. Now let's differentiate structure from templates, okay, for a SEC. Yes, please. Because it depends, of course, where you're getting your templates from and what kind of templates they are. But in most cases, and I've seen a lot of them, they are actually going to give you too much restriction to be able to have there's a balance of structure right there's. Fill in this blank over here with a benefit. Yes, fill in this blank with a benefit. Or describe your person's problem using six to eight points. Which one gives you more flexibility. Right? And which one is not going to sound like what everybody else is doing, right? Which one isn't going to be like, oh, it's this email that somebody must be selling as a swipe, right? I mean, God, I could do a. Whole episode about swipe files. But you know what, it's fine. Also, one thing that I think is really important in structure, and one thing we can also pull out of Outlander, specifically the books, is that that's a series, right? And so we're talking about nurture sequences today. And one of the most important functions of an email sequence is to make sure that people feel there's feeling again, motivated to open the next dang email. Is there something we can learn from book series like Outlander to show us? Should we be using things like Cliffhangers? Should we be including next up, what can we do, what can we learn from serial books about writing serial emails? I think all of those techniques. Are useful. Right. Open loops. Cliffhangers coming up. Stay tuned for but I think the most compelling reason, and the reason that there are nine outlander books and all kinds of offshoots and people keep reading them, is because the characters are just so darn likable and because you want to be in the world. You want to be in that world because it is so detailed and so, in many cases, realistic to the level of, like, these are real human things that are happening. And so when you have emails that are full of real human things happening, people will want to read the next one. Yeah. And Outlander is also a mash up of two very different worlds, right. And two very different cultures and two very different times and two very different worlds with these same characters over and over throughout. Right. So what about when you are dealing with a dichotomy of your own? Maybe two different segments of the same audience, or two parallel offers, or two calls to action you're driving? How do we maintain that balance? Should we be doing two at once? Should we really be focusing on 1740 over 1945? What should we do? I think that's where and this is my background working with Ryan Levac is where segmentation comes in. Yes. And where you can give your audience the ability to choose their own adventure. You ask them what they want and then give it to them. Right. And so in the beginning of your nurture sequence, you can say, like, which one of these best describes you? As someone is opting into your list, you can have one question that says, which one of these best describes you? And give them four options based on what you know about your market. And then they choose and then they get tagged, and then they have a sequence that is just for them. And this is really good when you know that you have different segments of your audience or maybe at different levels of business who are maybe different in different niches. And then the more you do that, obviously, it adds complications. You don't want to overdo it. But when it's done strategically, you can get very specific in them, the way that you talk to them, and it creates more of that. This person gets me. Yeah. This person gets me and only me. I would love that so many times, but not in Outlander, although I have not read all nine books. But sometimes when things have parallel worlds or dueling timelines or something like that, I find myself loving one timeline and not the other. Like, I read this book gosh, what was it called? The lost apothecary. And it was like a new discovering old, but they're showing us the old, and I didn't really care for the new, but I love the old. So if someone had Ryan Levet asked me if I would like a version of only the old stuff that's the opt in. I would have taken I would write a whole book just to the old stuff, but nobody asked me. Nobody is segmenting novels for me. Which is why I guess it's great that we're creating emails, right? For sure, for sure. And that thing about having two timelines and, and Claire so we're going to get into the books for a second. Claire comes into the, into the 18th century from, you know, post World War II and she has this curse of knowledge. She knows some of what's going to happen. She's not the best student of history, so she doesn't know all the details. But, you know, okay, there's a war coming or you know what germs are and the people around you have no idea, right? You know why you need to boil water from the river, right? And so how do you explain germs? And there's this scene in one of the books where she's explaining what a germ is to Jamie and he's like, how do you explain that to somebody who has no idea? How do you relating it back to business? How do you translate what you do for people just at the beginning of the journey in a way that they can understand? I feel like sometimes we're in this place of unconscious competence. We know our stuff and finding ways to explain it. Finding ways to explain germs in the 18th century. Oh my gosh, I think that's so huge because for her, for Claire, it's so basic. Yeah, it's like clearly we need to boil this, cover your mouth when you. Cough and boil stuff and wash your hands. But I love that idea of that curse of knowledge because that's so totally true and I see that a lot in mostly I mean, I see all kinds of stuff, any kind of technical jargon or startupy language or buzzwords or whatever. But especially my friends and clients in the Woo Woo community have a tendency to use these big like chakra activation and your chi and you're this and you're that and your human design and your blah, blah, blah. Right. And I'm like, y'all, that's not actually I know that you know what that means and I know that you want your ideal person to know what that means, but they might need some definitions and they might need a little bit more nurturing because it seems so simplistic to you. But Jamie doesn't know what a germ is, right? And that is where stories metaphors taking your ice cream story and turning it into an explanation of what chakras are. Why not? Someone do this, please. No kidding. Give me a glossary. I would love that. And then it allows you to access something that people can relate and take these concepts that I think people assume meanings of, but everybody assumes something different and these esoteric concepts and really bring them down to earth and ground them in something that is also sticky and memorable. Yeah, totally. Ice cream is sticky. Ice cream is sticky, memorable and delicious. What else have I asked you about? Outlander. Okay, so Claire, again, coming into the 18th century where the role of women, it was a little bit different. A little bit different, a little. And she gets a reputation very quickly for speaking her mind, and people go, you're not like other women here. You actually say what you think. And like, the scene in the beginning where she's in the hunch, she's cursing, and the guys are all going like, what? Who are you? Right. And speaking your mind, standing out in a situation where it may be easier to blend in. I think there's a lesson there. I mean, there's a lesson in your own life. You move to Israel from Florida. That alone is enough of a shift. I'm sure there were many things that you had to get used to and that Israel had to get used to when it comes to you. I missed target. Yeah. All my friends in Israel missed target. So shout out Target and also find a way to get into Israel. You're dearly wanted. And mint chip ice cream. Yes, that too. Although I have my trusty ice cream maker now. There you go. Actually, surprisingly easy. Really? Yeah. All right, everybody, your homework this week is to make ice cream. No, just kidding. It's not. But your homework this week is to think about your favorite ice cream. At least that's going to be part of it. Right? But I think that's huge and change is scary. And I think sometimes when we're writing these emails and we're promising these great big life altering changes, we lose track of the site, that the problem is scary. And that also doesn't mean that the solution isn't also scary. Yes, right. Like changing something, getting over the hump, getting what you want, looking at yourself in the mirror, understanding your past mistakes and correcting them, or missteps and correcting them, challenging yourself. All of these things are scary. Right? So that's another reason why we can't just jump to the solution, because we think it's so much easier to talk about than the pain point that can inflict pain if we rush too quickly to the end goal. Like, Claire has to struggle to learn how to live between these worlds. Claire and Jamie have to get to know each other after they're married. Like, there's a struggle here, there's a mountain to climb here. We can't just have Claire go back in time and suddenly be like, ah, feudal life. This works so beautifully for me. And yes, by all means, I will stop speaking until spoken to, and I will do nothing but make babies, sir. Like, no, that's painful, that's challenging. That's change. Right? Like, as much as you wanted to move to Israel, I'm sure parts of it were tough, but you decide that you want to go back and meet an author from your shelf. Not chaucer. Not chaucer, not chosen. But you're going to go back and you're going to have a discussion about writing with a writer and co create something with a writer from history. Who are you co creating with? I mean, I feel like the the answer is clear, Diana, and she's still she's still around. So hey, if you're listening to this. If you're listening, book Ten could be right now, imagine. Amazing. All right, and what is the best way for our listeners who need you for their emails, for their projects, for their nine booked anthologies? What's the best way for them to start a conversation with you? So the first thing is you should go and get my 30 subject line shortcuts, because we talked about structure and we talked about frameworks, and those do not we won't give you a template. We will give you structures and ideas to work in dwcopy.com subject lines. Go get it. And then you will get my emails, and you can read all about why my husband thinks mint chocolate chip tastes like toothpaste, the wild boars in my front yard, and all kinds of other adventures. And then once you do, let me know that you've got it by sending me a damn on Instagram. And what's your instagram at Danielle? Kyle? W-E-I-L nominal. Y'all. Go get that subject guide. I'm going to get it right now, because if you're on my mailing list, you know that mine have not really been up to snuff lately. But that's why I have a podcast, so I can meet people who tell me to fix it. Danielle, it has been an absolute delight having you here, sharing time and sharing space with me on this plane. I'm so glad we didn't have to go back to feudal times to get it done. Me too. Thank you for being my guest today. Thank you for having me, y'all. I will be back in just a second with my final thought and your homework for the week, so go grab a cup of your favorite ice cream and come right back. Well, hey there. This week I want to throw down a challenge. Instead of homework, you are all cordially invited to join the Danielle Wile Honorary Ice Cream Buffet of Copywriting, which you can tell that I named and not. Her, because she would have come up. With something clever and probably an acronym with double meaning. But you know what? I digress. I got to witness Danielle ask her ice cream question over and over and listen to the answers in real time. All over pod fest. Shout out if you're one of the. People I forced her to ask. Danielle asked all kinds of people with all kinds of different podcasts, and every single time, two identical things happened. Number one, just thinking about ice cream lit up every single person and conversation. And number two, every answer we were given was shockingly deep and surprisingly meaningful to the person. It just clicks. You find something resonant and you double down. So now I'm going to steal her sequence, paraphrase it, and turn it back on you so you can do the same. What is your favorite ice cream? What specifically do you love about it? Why is it your favorite? Maybe it's a memory. Maybe it's an aspect of that ice cream. How is your company, your work, or the value you provide just like that ice cream? And how can you directly, literally communicate this to your client in copy? I got a head start, so I'll go first. I love mint chip, as I already disclosed. I love that the mint adds a whole new layer of Christmas to the cold sensation, and the chip forces you to chew instead of just gulping it down. It's my job to amplify people's resonance so that they can double down on how they want people to feel. And I'm also crunchy so you can't ignore me. Basically, I'm the chips. Your turn. Hey, thanks for listening. If this episode kept you laughing and. Learning, I have two requests for you. First, make sure you hit that subscribe. Or Follow button, depending on your platform so you never miss an episode. And also, more importantly, if you are looking for support, inspiration, networking, collaborations, or. Just a chance to hang out with me, NEP Ruggles and our fantastic guests, make sure that you are a member of our LinkedIn community, the legitimate it is a weird and wonderful place. I can't even believe it's on LinkedIn. And we want you there. You'll find the link in the show notes. Big shout out, as always, to the fabulous dudes who helped me make this show, my producer and editor, Andrew Sims of Hypable Impact, my theme composer, Riley Horbacio, and my show art creator, Francois Vigneault. See you next time.